Judge Says Our Food Choice Is Not a Fundamental Right

Posted on Oct 12 2011 - 2:04am by Mike Lieberman

When I asked about what food news has caught your attention, most people mentioned the cantaloupe listeria outbreak.

One person, David Csonka, mentioned a story from Food Renegade that no one else did called Is Your Choice of Food a Fundamental Right?.

I’m surprised that this one didn’t get more attention.

There was a court decision in Wisconsin where Judge Patrick J Fiedler said that we do not have a fundamental right to consume the food you grow or raise.

His words were:

“no, Plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to own and use a dairy cow or a dairy herd;”
“no, Plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to consume the milk from their own cow;”
“no, Plaintiffs do not have a fundamental right to produce and consume the foods of their choice”
source

He is saying that we don’t have the right to grow and/or raise our own food to consume. I would somewhat understand if he was talking about selling that food, but he’s not. That’s what makes this ridiculous.

This is not an issue about being Democrat or Republican. It’s an issue about saying that we as humans and Americans do not have a right to grow and consume our own food.

I’m not sure about what this ruling means and what is going to happen. I just wanted to bring it to your attention and get some discussion going around it.

I thought getting fined for growing too much food was a bit much, but this definitely supersedes that one.

Here are my thoughts – I say screw Judge Fiedler and what he has to say. I’m going to continue to grow my own food. I might even get some miniature cows and goats for my balcony garden too.

What are your thoughts on this? Is your food choice and being able to grow and consume your own food a fundamental right?

Photo courtesy of SocialRobot on Flickr.

  • Vicki Schoenwald

    Mike,
    I predicted several years ago that we would have no  control on our food once the healthcare bill was signed.  There is mentions of control of foods to the population in the bill,  and the government will tell you what to eat and how to eat it. As we are supposed to have healthcare, the government will control obesity, and other health ills, including salt, sugar and fats and whatever else the gov deems hazardous to your health since they are supposed to pay for it.
    We are having issues even here in hillbilly hell about gardening in your own yard, and what you are buying in the store. 
    I do not like to mention politics but this one comes directly from the White House and the administration and is now on the “plate” of America and unless people start standing up and taking notice and voice their opinion, and stand up, it wil be forced upon all of us.

  • Vicki Schoenwald

     PS
    I am also still looking for the video of the Ag secretary talking about what the government will do about picking food for you to eat and “everyone had just better accept it”.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    That’s f’n sad. We all gotta do something about it. Voting in a booth ain’t gonna change a thing. It’s just swapping out one puppet for another. None of which have our best interest in mind. We need to speak with our actions and our choices!

  • http://twitter.com/lovesowngarden Paige Puckett

    Dang.

  • http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com The Crimson Pirate

    This is the same kind of thing that is and has been done by many totalitarian governments.  The fascists in Spain were the most notorius for siezing privately grown food and redistributing it in the name of social good.  But we have seen the same thing in plenty of countries and times form post Wiemar Republic Germany all the way to the current day in Zimbabwe.  It says volumes about where we are at in our history and what will probably happen next.

    You are right about there being no difference the two parties, and even the partisan system itself is a mechanism for facilitating corruption.  I’m not sure what we can do about it.  Hope that there is an appeal, and a higher court rules differently.  Contact your legislators at the federal and state level and advocate for less government involvement in our private gardens and our lives in general.  Will it actually accomplish anything?  I don’t know.  But at this time we have no other options. 

    After that civil disobedience would be the next step.  Then less than civil disobedience at some point.  But we are not there yet.  So flood your reps, and senators with phone calls, emails, faxes, and letters.

  • http://notquitehippie.com D.T. Pennington

    I think this is absolute crap. I think, just to show this judge what’s up, we all need to grow and produce as much food of our own as possible. 

    We do have the fundamental right to eat whatever we want. That’s why more than half of our country is sick and obese – they choose to eat garbage like McDonald’s and be ignorant as to what it is they are putting in their bodies. 

    I think a campaign needs to be put together to shut this guy down. 

  • http://buildingordinary.blogspot.com Kathryn Grace

    I followed the links back a ways in hopes of understanding the context of this ruling. It is one thing to rule that a person may not have the right to own certain animals within city limits. We are all aware that many cities have ordinances prohibiting certain livestock or prescribing under what conditions we might own livestock within city limits. That was not the issue here.

    To rule that we simply do not have the right to own animals, or the right to consume the food we raise in our gardens and on our farms, well, that is a chilling decision. Surely the framers of the Constitution would be horrified.

    This judge has gone too far. May the voters of Wisconsin rule him out of order and off the bench in the next election. Or if he is an appointed judge, I pray some very smart lawyers come up with better arguments upon appeal and get that ruling thrown on the judicial compost heap.

    This is another example of the importance of voting for a moderate candidate rather than refraining from voting in an election when we don’t like either candidate. Whoever wins gets to appoint the judiciary, and once an appointed judge is seated, s/he’s likely to be there for as long as s/he wants to be.

  • http://buildingordinary.blogspot.com Kathryn Grace

    I agree with much of what you say. I wonder if you are aware that many people actually don’t have a lot of choice when it comes to eating fast food. Many who live in the slums of inner cities have no vehicles, must rely on spotty public transportation, and live more than a mile from a supermarket or store that sells fresh produce. That’s assuming they can afford produce and healthier food choices on their minimum wage incomes. Their location and their circumstances force them to rely on the extremely cheap meals at fast food outlets to meet their hunger needs.

    Many people are working to change that through education, urban gardens, and programs designed to help people lift themselves from poverty. But the food deserts of the inner city remain, for the moment.

    Others, such as California’s migrant farm workers, can feed their whole family at the fast food driveup for the cost of one or two apples at their local supermarket. It is especially sad that the people who tend and pick the delicious fresh goods the rest of us enjoy have little or no access to those same foods. Many farmers do not allow the workers to enjoy the fruits of the field while they work in them, let alone take home a few bits.

  • Lallen8029

    Everybody had better stock up on heirloom seeds.  We are going to need them when they say we can’t grow our own and will not sell them to us.

  • http://notquitehippie.com D.T. Pennington

    Kathryn - 
    I live in a verified food desert. Just moved here six months ago from the “inner city” where there was a decent grocery on every block. Now, everything I eat comes from the farmstand which sets up on Saturdays two blocks from my house, or my garden, or when we buy in bulk from a commissary warehouse. 

    If you remove the idea that you need to have the “pastoral ambiance” when you shop for food, you discover that there are countless other places to acquire food from rather than groceries and fast food. 

    Don’t get me wrong, we’re living in a busted system. However, I still fully believe the food is still there so long as you’re willing to give up the convenience factor and put some good time into preparing a meal. 

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Simple yet profound.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Keep spreading the word and getting more people to action of growing their own and supporting local growers.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    True dat.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Agreed. It’s easy to place blame on external forces and call yourself a victim. It’s difficult to do someting or anything about it. Good for you!

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    The best way to vote is to vote with your dollar. 

  • http://marysgardeningendeavors.blogspot.com Mary C.

    No bueno. I think I do have a fundamental right to eat what I choose to. I think I also have fundamental right to grow food stuff if I choose to, including edibles. Hence I think it is logical that I can choose to eat what I grow o.O

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    hard to argue that.

  • Stormtrooper3518

    Well I guess this judge must have somebody that tells him what he can eat or drink.

  • Crystal Henson

    I think the people of Wisconsin should be furious! What a completely brainwashed, backwards thing to say. 

    Dairy isn’t like drugs or alcohol. It doesn’t need to be monitored and you sure as heck shouldn’t have to pay an exorbitant permit fee just so you can drink it from your own cow/goat.

    Here in San Diego the City Counsel is currently undergoing and implementing changes to the Urban Agriculture Regulations that will allow most to be able to have chickens (no roosters), bees and two miniature goats (two because they are social animals) right here in the city. 

    I am SO PROUD of my city for acknowledging and implementing change. They understand that it’s a human right to consume food you’ve worked for.

  • http://buildingordinary.blogspot.com Kathryn Grace

    I do, and I frequently advise anyone who will listen to do the same!

  • http://buildingordinary.blogspot.com Kathryn Grace

    I agree with you that for most of us, the food is there if we look for it. And I’m a big proponent of cooking from scratch with the freshest possible ingredients, all organic. Having lived in an area where “organic” causes eyes to widen and heads
    to rear back, I know how difficult it can be to find good food untainted
    with pesticides and  other carp. It’s tough. I applaud you for making the extra effort to find food that meets your needs. It can’t be easy in that situation.

    From what I understand, however, for many, many people, especially people with little to no resources, fast food is almost their only option.

    Fortunately, in communities around the country, those a little more fortunate are setting up urban gardens on vacant lots and rooftops and finding other creative ways to provide alternative food sources closer to the people who have little or no means to get out and get them

    I love that. Don’t you?

  • Luechakin

    I’m glad to hear about this, although the story is absolutely outrageous!

  • http://profiles.google.com/trinityvision3 Melissa Willis

    That man is insane!  It’s curious to me that this hasn’t gotten more attention!  Thanks for the heads up!

  • Veronica

    I live in San Diego.. do you mean they will change the “50 feet from and residential building” rule? They already changed the rules from something like “4 chickens if you are in 4H” to “25 chickens 50 feet from and house” (including your own). If you have any specific info I would love to know. I have 4 hens right now….under the radar, but am having a neighbor issue of an unrelated nature and it has me worried:(

    …On another note, did you read the offensive San Diego reader article about gardening where VGSD was looking to “streamline” the garden permit process, as though you need a permit for such an action?

  • Veronica

    Sorry. “a house” not “and house”

  • Veronica

    Beans and rice are both cheaper that McDonalds, healthier, and have a shelf life long enough that you can travel from whatever “food desert” you live in, across vast miles and terrain to purchase them. For the same apple cost, one can grow more sprouts than you actually care to eat on a windowsill.

    Just a note, my sister lives in Chicago, and takes public transportation to the grocery store. It might be a pain, but I went along and it wasn’t THAT bad. Plus, if you have the internet, amazon delivers some of the best food deals with free shipping and you don’t even need to have a credit card because you can pay cash for a gift card. Like serious deals better than the grocery store on organic foods in BPA free cans and everything delivered straight to the desert.

    I hate the “food desert” excuse.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1408646956 Juanita Wright

    Oh, hell yeah, I have a right to grow and eat what I want!  Just try to take that away from me!  You will see some organic fertilizer hit the fan!  And yes, we had better start saving heirloom and organ seeds, while we can still get them.  They are becoming harder and harder to find, thank you very much Monsanto!!!  Oh, this crap makes me so mad and I am a pretty easy going, positive person.  But this is messing with my life and the life of my children and grandbabies.  I do not stand still for this!!!  
    You go, Mikey, get you a mini cow and goat for your balcony and a couple chickens to pick the weed seeds outta your containers!! LOL ;o)

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    What the fuck bro?!?!! Thanks for brining this to my attention. Good find!

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    It’s sad. Thanks for sharing.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Very likely.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    That’s what’s up!

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Renegade chickens. Love it.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Completely outrageous.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Completely outrageous.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Not sure how it didn’t get more attention.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Not sure how it didn’t get more attention.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Hahaha. We all gotta do our part. That’s how change will come about.

  • http://buildingordinary.blogspot.com Kathryn Grace

    I agree that for the able bodied, unencumbered individual, a half hour or more bus ride each way, even with a change or two, is not a deal breaker. For a mother with an infant, a stroller and a toddler in hand, though, managing a grocery bag or two on public transportation is challenging, to put it in the best possible light.

    I know. When I was caring for my granddaughter, just managing her, the stroller and diaper bag on the bus was extremely difficult. Occasionally, I had to purchase a few groceries as well. I can tell you, there is no easy way to hold a baby, a folded stroller, a diaper bag, a sack of groceries and a gallon of milk while seated on a crowded bus, let alone the times we had to stand.

    What about elderly and the not-so-able-bodied? If you ride public transportation daily, you know how difficult it is for them to maneuver in the crowded aisles, especially when they are carrying a sack or two of groceries. As one who must schlepp almost all of the food that comes into our house, I can tell you that old bones and backs do it with pain in every step.

    Those more fortunate among us can order CMA or online for delivery, true. Many cannot afford those prices and rely on the cheapest possible alternatives, which means watching the sales and going on the loss-leader days.

    Getting back to your comment that shopping by bus with your sister wasn’t that bad, I wonder. Would you routinely travel an hour or more round trip, in any kind of weather, to purchase thirty or forty pounds of groceries you have to schlepp through the most dangerous neighborhoods in the city back to your multi-story walkup? Would you do it 2-3 times a week to keep your family fed? If you had to use a cane or a walker? If you had to take your small children with you because you could not afford a sitter while you shop?

    I do agree with you that beans and rice, purchased in bulk, are cheaper than McDonalds. That is, they are cheaper if you don’t mind GMO and pesticide-grown versions, and don’t mind that you don’t have spices and fresh produce like onions and garlic and tomatoes to make them a little more palatable. I’m curious though. Do you think most people living in the slums, where the food deserts are generally located, would choose to eat plain beans and rice three times a day when they can pop over to the fast food spot for chicken nuggets, a sausage biscuit or a dollar meal?

    As for fresh produce, you are correct that sprouts pack a nutrient wallop. How would you propose educating people living in food deserts about the value of sprouts, how to grow them, and ways to use them with their rice and beans? If you think I am making an assumption that most of the folks there would require some help getting to know sprouts and using them, you are correct. Would you agree it’s a pretty good assumption? I’m not saying everyone there would be uninformed, but I’m guessing in neighborhoods where drive-by shootings and drugs are prevalent, sprouts are not high on everyone’s radar.

    I also wonder how many inner city apartments have windows providing enough light to grow sprouts year round. I live in a sunny neighborhood, but my windows face north and I’ve not had much luck with sprouts so far myself. I keep trying though.

    I’m grateful for this extended conversation. It’s important that we talk about these issues. I hope to see the discussion expand and continue.

    A big thank you to Mike for suggesting it!

  • MaryssaGC

    If a sustainable planet is our priority, then we need to prioritize systems in which we use the fewest resources.  I’m mystified as to what could have prompted the judge to respond like this but I would encourage people to be as organic and local as possible. 

  • Veronica

    Yes, I would travel as far as necessary to get the food I needed. I routinely urban forage, and if I can walk a mile or 2 each way  to come back with a trash bag full of forageables, then yes, I would ride a bus an hour each way carrying groceries. I saw plenty of little old ladies on the L train loaded up like an ant with groceries and while I’m sure it isn’t ideal, people are not the helpless people you make them out to be. They also make these awesome wheeled carts to carry your groceries in, which are specifically sized to go down bus isles. As for the baby, I got one word. baby backpack (or frontpack). Now your arms are free.

    ” Would you routinely travel an hour or more round trip, in any kind of weather, to purchase thirty or forty pounds of groceries you have to schlepp through the most dangerous neighborhoods in the city back to your multi-story walkup? Would you do it 2-3 times a week to keep your family fed?”

    —families eat 60-120 pounds of food a week on a budget? Exaggerate much?

    I am totally sure people in “food deserts” <–still don't think they exist truly would rather eat McDonalds that beans and rice. Why? because 95% of Americans can not fathom "a meal without meat". Completely unthinkable. Once that mental barrier is broken, it would not be a problem. And no, not just "GMO rice and beans". I have priced beans and rice over many years, and the cheapest is not always the worst.

    Sprouts do not require light until they are a certain size, and most plants can utilize flourescent light (those subsidized twisty bulbs for only $1) just fine.

    As for the comment about being "fortunate enough" to order on the internet when they have to be price conscious, I already told you amazon's prices are often cheaper than the grocery store, and have free shipping. I would not be ordering food on the internet if it was not cheaper than the grocery store down the street.
    I have found bpa free cans of organic beans for as low as $12.40 a case with free shipping, for example. (Currently it is more, but Amazon moves the price up and down a lot) That is on par with the cheapo generic non organic cans that they sell at the store, and you didn't even have to leave the apartment. If they do not have the internet, (which I doubt in this age) the library has it for free.

    Finally, if the people do not care about their own health (the comment about sprouts not being on the radar) that isn't my problem. If I can prove that a person CAN eat healthy on a certain budget, and the person chooses not to, that is THEIR choice. Just as I do not want food I do not wish to eat forced into my cupboard, if an individual wants to be sprout and rice free that is no one's business but their own. When you make excused for people, you make it easy for them to play the excuse game.

  • Wilcox

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    styosegeeds@dunflimblag.mailexpire.com. Thanks!

  • http://davidcsonka.com David Csonka

    I think basically, the judge in question is pointing out that the constitution does’t not explicitly grant the right to grow one’s own food, etc. I suppose factually, this is true.

    Unfortunately, I’m willing to bet that this will be used in the future as grounds for stripping rights away.

    I’m sure there is no mention of growing food in the Bill of Rights because the founders never would have imagined that the government would evolve to one that raids farms with guns drawn in order to stop food production. I hope we don’t need an amendment to close this loophole.

  • KMA

    The idea that I don’t have the legal right to grow food and consume said food at my discretion is a travesty.  I might take issue if in growing this food, I am somehow infringing on the rights of others, using someone else’s land, or depriving someone else of their rights.  But, if the land is my own, and I purchased the seed then what could be the problem?  I’m no conspiracy theorist, but the fact is that the amount of time and money the big food companies spend lobbying in our government for the right to hide ingredients, or sell food that is injurious to our health is tantamount to government duplicity in favor of our continued bad health.
    Something stinks.  I’m with you.  To heck with that judge.  See if I let him stop me.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Amen to that. Let’s keep doin what we do!

  • Anonymous

    Honestly, What did we expect when Justice Kagan refused to answer the question, “Can the government mandate the people eat 3 veggies and 3 fruits daily?” 

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    True dat.

  • Lou Almon

    “The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”
    –Ninth Amendment to the United States Constitution

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EWU74XZCZDTLKLABMUFIXTU74I More

    I’ve got my own garden, although I don’t live in an urban area.  It’s more like a suburban area.  This comes to private property rights, and individual liberty which is something the US Constitution is supposed to protect – and our government is sworn to uphold.

    A free and independent individual should have the right to grow what he wants on his own property.  One would think that this is a natural law, but in this day and age it’s not.    Now it seems that the government believes that they give us our rights, as opposed to us having individual rights for simply being humans.

    Ron Paul 2012

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    True dat. It’s sad what’s going on, but empowering that we can make a difference and make some change.

  • http://profiles.google.com/jefferey.cave Jeff Cave

    I agree, but this isn’t a debate that is settled for me. What goes on on my private property is my own business, however there is a point where what goes on on your property crosses over onto my property. For example, if you keep an animal, but don’t keep it clean, at some point, I have a bad smell on my property. Basically, you are placing garbage (the smell) on my property. 

    I disagree with the Judge, you should not be prevented from growing your own food. However, I do believe that there is an issue that will arise in *some* cases.

  • Christine

    I like in a third class, capitol city where you cannot own a chicken. I would love to have chickens for the eggs and this is not possible unless I have them living somewhere outside of the city limits. The city considers it a sanitation problem but does not have a problem with people owning mulitiple dogs, keeping them outside in a yard full of feces. I do have a garden but I would love to take my food production to the next level.

    Do you have any other details about where he was trying to keep the cow? Unfortunately, it only takes one irresponsible person (too much animal waste, animal kept in too small of an area) to ruin it for everyone.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    I hear you. The odd thing is that spraying chemicals in your yard or garden isn’t seen as waste or a sanitation problem, but having food is….

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    There will always be issues. That can’t be avoided. I agree with your statement about the garbage and smell, but where is the line and who decides it?

    You use chemicals in your garden and the spray gets onto my property? You have art outside, but someone else sees it as an eye sore. It gets to be pretty touchy.

  • Crystal Henson

    They’re looking to remove the residential distance rule for 5 chickens and put up a 15 foot rule for 15 chickens.

    And no… I didn’t hear about garden permits… Try and GET our money we use for good food, see what happens.

    When you live like Hippocrates, food can get expensive. Making food our medicine and medicine our food. I think my 5 year old has been sick once in his life. Growing your own medicine should be a human right and not something you make a permit for.

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Amen to that!

  • Laurel

    I accidentally hit like first instead of reply.  Beans & rice need a place to be cooked too and if you dont have a kitchen, you can’t do beans & rice.  Alot of people are forced to survive on like $4/ day which would not even cover the bus fare back & forth.  And where are they supposed to find Amazon gift cards?   Your simplistic response clearly indicates how far removed & out of touch you are.  The ” food desert” as you call it, is not an excuse, it’s a reality~ obviously not for you or anyone you know.

  • Laurel

    Well said

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Laurel – I understand what you are saying, but those seem like a lot of parameters. No one is “forced” to live on $4/day. You can do something about that. 

    I think the main thing is accepting responsibility of what is going on and doing something about it. Not claiming to be a victim and expecting someone else to do something about it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001373587315 Shiloe Greene

    2012 Farm bill look it up!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001373587315 Shiloe Greene

    2012 Farm Bill look it up!

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Yes. Thanks for the info.

  • Anonymous

    Wasn’t this appalling? I was so angry when I read that in the news a couple weeks back. I just shook my head in disbelief! The more stuff like this I read, the more it makes me want to buy some land in the middle of no where and live off the grid. Sigh … if only the funds were available! 

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    I’m going to create my own island…

  • http://www.eatoutsidethebag.com/ Eat Outside the Bag

    I hear about this story a while ago and it makes me sick.  It always starts small with changes than only affect a small portion of the population and then before we know it we’re all doing something illegal.  Here in Ohio it’s illegal to drink raw milk because “It’s Dangerous” yet the gas/oil companies can come in and frack up our state and pollute our drinking water and the gov’t is saying “It’s perfectly safe”.  

    This is one of the big problems with our current corporgov establishment.  Big Ag means big $$$ for politicians.  Big Ag also means big $ to pharmaceuticals b/c everyone is sick.  No one wants to shut down their sugar daddy and if we can get all the crazies that grow their own food to be in on it all the more $ we’ll make.  

    Stories like this will only become more frequent as the grow your own movement intensifies.  The politicians are scared because you can’t control people when you don’t control their food.  People eating healthy homegrown food are also the ones questioning what’s going on.  That makes us dangerous! 

  • http://www.UrbanOrganicGardener.com Mike Lieberman

    Very well said. That’s why it’s important for us to continually raise awareness and empower others.

  • Niteflyrwoman

    I always say “it’s all about the money honey” and it is.They can’t get TAXES on food we grow and I think they’re afraid that if we grow our own then we put farmers outta business.Yes it’s all about the money but I don’t want to stop growing stuff. Where we live I can’t tear up the ground,ok, I’ll just plant it pots and buckets! This year it’s alittle,next year it will get bigger.Love your site by the way dude.